A number of the Masters who preceded you - Swamiji, Babaji and your own Master Sawan Singh all left writing behind them or reports or records. How accurate and how pure are those records today?

    Truly speaking, you see, this (successorship) is not a thing to be passed on through papers. It is not like lands or other things which are passed on through papers. It is sometimes passed on through the eyes. So Masters never do that (pass successorship through papers). They've never done it.

Well, I mean the writing they left behind. How accurate is it?

    Why should it tax us?

Sar Bachan, for example, and some of the other books.

    These books are there, of course, there are two parts of Sar Bachan. One is a collection of poems. One is in prose. Some of the poetry is by Swamiji Himself. And the other part is from Rai Saligram. Both are combined together and are known as Sar Bachan. The prose portion is not the direct statement of Swamiji but of somebody who attended Satsang and was detailed to convey what was spoken there, a third person conveying the talks given by Swamiji to Rai Saligram. So the prose part is that.

Was Rai Saligram a Saint?

    Yes, surely, he was very advanced. There were three disciples of Swamiji. One was Baba Jaimal Singh who was very much advanced in meditation. He went to the highest. Rai Saligram was a very loving and devoted disciple. And there was one sadhu whose name was Garib Das; he initiated only those who were sadhus. Rai Saligram remained at Agra along with Swamiji's wife
and Baba Jaimal Singh was detailed to come to the Punjab and continue Swamiji's work. Therefore this line was continuing through Baba Jaimal Singh, Baba Sawan Singh and still continues. Now Swamiji is passed on ... With due deference the only criterion is what you get. If a man gets that much it is all creditable; it is for the people to see not for anyone else to judge. With due deference they were the three prominent disciples of Swamiji. So now generally these things are passed on through eyes; not through papers. It is not any land or house or anything like that to be passed on. Of course, these things (land, houses) are passed on through papers, but this is a gift of the soul through the soul.
    The man is trained all through life to be prepared. Everything is in the make. One day doesn't make a man a Saint. All through life he's being made. Then there comes a time when it is passed on. "Well, all right, continue on."

There's not too much point reading what they've left behind, then?

    Sometimes it proves not useful, I would say. I have regard for everybody. It is up to people to judge whether they can get anything. If they get the same thing, there can be no dispute between the givers. Maybe there are one hundred givers, ten givers, five givers. It's a question of when a man receives, then there's trouble. So I have love for all. Those who are giving, all right, well and good. I have love for them. Even though they don't give anything, it is for the people to decide, "Why should I bother about them?" I have respect for all.

To change the subject, someone was asking a little bit earlier today what exactly you meant when you referred in an earlier talk to "two souls in one body. " (on September 8th)

    Two souls joined together in matrimony should feel one in two bodies. That's all I meant. I never meant any obsession, you see. Marriage is taking a companion in life; they should have one thought, one word, one ideal to follow. They should not be clashing. They should be receptive to each other. So that is what I meant, one soul working in two bodies. It is God who unites. One is born somewhere. The other is born somewhere else. It is the flowing pen of God which unites them. When God has united them they should work together. "Whom God unites, let no earthly power disunite." So they should work as one soul in two bodies. Live an ideal life and be of service to others also. An animal can be of service to itself but man is man who is of service to others as well as to himself.

Your exact quote then was, "One soul in two bodies, " and not, "two souls in one body?"

    No, no, not that. That becomes an obsession. Not that. Those whom God has united, should remain together through weal or woe, both make an effort to know God. One duty may be of begetting children. One duty. Not all. Anyhow, it is not a machine of enjoyment. It's a sacred duty. It is a sacrament.

Is this a matter of soul mates, really? Half a soul uniting to the other true half soul?

    You see, according to give and take, reactions of the past, men are brought together to finish up their give and take. Others are brought together as sons and daughters and so on. This is just to wind up the whole give and take. That's all.

This is just a phrase then, really?

    Yes, a phrase just to let them know they are to work together, not disunite. I think you will have better love this way than the other way, you see. God has united you. What is marriage? Two souls born in different places are brought together. They don't know each other, never dreamt of it, but they come together and become united. From this day onward their company is sacred so that there will be no corruption. Because God has united them they will have more love for each other. Try to adjust. They must be of use to others as well as to themselves. Man is one who is of use to others also. The main ideal before us is to know God while in the man body.

Does it often follow that people who are married in this life have been married in previous lives?

    Maybe, but may not be. Reincarnation is there, you see. Definitely. Some say it is not. I know suchlike people who do remember their past birth. They gave some thing of their past lives which has been verified.

But you can see it all from the top of the third plane?

    Yes, not before. If you knew who is who now, I'm afraid you wouldn't like to see his face or else you'll be more attached. The attachment already brought us down here. So it's better not to know, and clear our way back to God, that's all.

Do we meet people from previous lives? If we meet them, do we meet them again? Is it a pattern that we keep on meeting the same people all the time?

    Not necessarily. Some we meet. We have to finish our give and take in some other garb. You see? Sometimes you say you don't want to pay any man anything, still he forces you: you have to pay whether you wish it or not. Sometimes you want to help somebody but with all your goodness you try, but you cannot help him. Sometimes you love somebody, but with all the good you do, he doesn't love you. So these are due to the reactions of the past.

Where is the decision made as to what role we will play in a given life? On the astral level or does the Master make it from Sach Khand?

    The only thing, when a man and son are united - this union comes as a result of the past. When they are brought together we should be very devoted because God has united them with you. We have been united by the decree of God, as the reactions of our past. Wind up all reaction. So, in both of them the idea before them is to know God. Pay off all previous seeds and don't sow new seeds to sprout forth. That you do only when you become a conscious co-worker of the divine plan. Otherwise, every man feels he is the doer. When you are the doer then whatever you do will react. As you sow, so shall you reap. So, if you have become conscious co-worker of the divine plan, there'll be nobody to reap, you see.

Madame Blavatsky used to have this phrase: "The lords of Karma." Is that a valid phrase?

    "Lords of Karma" means Negative Power. You see, that action- reaction is after all controlled by some power. As you sow, naturally that bears forth fruit. So we should be very cautious not to sow fresh seeds, new seeds, because we have to bear the reactions.

What if in spite of everything we do, we do sow some fresh seeds?

    Yes, that you cannot differentiate now.

That means we have to come back in another life?

    Now, as I have said, we do not know what is the reaction of the past or what fresh deeds we are doing. We do not know these things unless we come to the third plane. Now, what to do? Know it is God Who has united, and pay off sweetly. Adjust yourself. Don't think evil of others. That's sowing the seed. In thinking evil of others - even in thought, that is sowing a seed. To tell lies, just to say something and mean something else, these are sowing seeds. So you should have love for God and love for all humanity. In that way you won't have any fresh seeds. If anything comes up that will be as a reaction of the past, you are helpless, you will have to do it. But you do not know. Even if you sow fresh seeds, new seeds, and you become a conscious co-worker of the divine plan, they won't react. They will nullify because the doer won't be there.

Suppose we don't get to that exalted state of becoming a conscious co-worker of the Divine Plan and we do have an evil thought about somebody - in a future life, how would we have to pay that back? By them thinking evilly of us or doing an evil action toward us?

    If a man becomes a conscious co-worker of the Divine Plan, he never thinks evil of others. When he sees He is working, how can he think evil? He sees all are gods, micro-gods. That's understanding. When you get the right understanding, you see that all mankind is one, all are soul - conscious entities in the same controlling power. So right understanding will result in right thoughts; right thoughts will result in right speech and right speech will result in right action. You cannot do otherwise. So it is always better to be guided by the Master. He will say, "All right, adjust yourself. Cooperate to the best you can and leave the rest to God." If you get His guidance, it will help. Sometimes it will help. Surrender: The whole thing lies right there and that's very difficult. To surrender completely is very difficult. It is better to do your best and leave the rest to God. If you have the right understanding then naturally everything will fall off and won't be binding. The "Wheel of Life" explains in more detail.

 Yes, I've read it, but I can stand reading it again, I know.

    Digest it more, that's all. Master's teachings are sometimes given very straight; they don't mind who's who. People say, "Oh Master, what is the good of our coming to you if we have to go round on the wheel of actions?" They say if you go to a lion and are afraid of jackals, what's the good of it? It's the work of the Master to wind up in His own way. Any reactions which cannot be set aside are made to happen. Even little thoughts can be adjusted and those are also finished with. But the ultimate goal is to make man conscious of the Divine Plan. An example is given: There are loads and loads of wood, heaps of wood. If you put a little spark of fire to them, all will be reduced to ashes. Similarly, you've committed an unlimited number of heinous crimes in past lives; if you have a spark of light from a Sadhu that will burn away. That means you become a conscious co-worker. This is something you start to develop. That's not the end-all. You see the Light. Then naturally you will have the right understanding. You'll feel bouyant to sing in an inspired way. As a man develops he feels that way. He becomes a mouthpiece. So learned and unlearned both are sinful. Even good actions are binding. Chains may be of iron or gold. That makes no difference. They are all binding. So the only way to become a conscious co-worker of the Divine Plan is to know that He's doing it, you are not. You will have to become a mouthpiece of God. Masters speak as inspired by God. And we all have to become that. There's nothing to be afraid of. Every king wants his son to be a king, not a minister. Every Saint wants His man coming up to be a saint. That is why I tell you, you are to become ambassadors. Haven't I done my part so far? It is you people who have to carry on further. You are the budding hopes of the coming generations, I would say.

You mentioned last night that at initiation as is just about always the case, approximately one third or a little bit more of the initiates saw the Master within. Does that mean at that moment when they did that they became conscious co-workers of God and will always be regarded as such?

    That experience is something to show that that Power is within you always watching your every action, whether you see it or not. Then you have to develop. Talk to Him consciously. And that Power talks within, Master does talk. Yesterday at initiation I asked if Master talked to anybody - "yes," one person told me.
    That was only to show that there is something. People don't believe there is anything inside. They say, "It is all dark; what is it, it is all blurred, what is in there?" Thank God, people are having proof of this Power. You cannot prove spirituality. Go anywhere, the other gurus simply say, "Go on doing this, go on doing this, go on doing that, you'll have it." But a bird in hand is better than two in the bush. So Master gives you something to prove that there is something inside and you testify yourself that you've seen. When you have seen, then there's no evidence required from anybody else. Everybody has his own development but everybody gets something, some conviction that you see for yourself. So that's the biggest criterion. Don't believe even in the words of the Master unless you are convinced yourself. You do see. Maybe little or more. That is to be developed.

Well, if you don't believe in the words of the Master before you have an experience, you have a lot of trouble having the experience, don't you?

    I tell you, no. Books are there. A learned and unlearned man both have to do the same thing. An unlearned man does not require any rules or any evidences from the past Masters, this and that - he doesn't care. The learned man would like to know whether it is true, whether anybody else also bears testimony to it; he is taught very cautiously. There is a building with hundreds of stairs to reach up to the top. There are two men; one is learned, the other is unlearned. They are told, "All right, you go up to the roof, to the top of the roof and you'll see the sun rising." The unlearned starts going up. And the other one says, "How many steps are there? My foot might slip down. What will be the proof that I will be saved?" Then he goes up ten steps and says, "Oh, there's no light, how do you know there will be light?" You see? As you near the top, you have some light. When you go up, you'll see. That's all. It's something like that. Two men, one learned and the other unlearned, both went to a Master. To the unlearned man He said, "All right, I'll charge you a single fee." The learned man came up, "I think everything should be free." But the Master said, "I'll charge you a double fee." Why? "Because I first have to make you unlearned and then you can start. I will have to do this by explaining this
and that thing." One lady came to me: "I don't want any theory, give me experience." She got an experience.
    Children see Light. They don't want any theories or any discussions or what one Master said or what the other said. They simply sit and see Light. That's a boost given by a Master. That's the only criterion of judging whether a Man really has something to give. What He has to give may not be full but it is at least something. It is a start when you rise above body consciousness. Where all world philosophies end, there the religion starts. "Re" means back, "legio" to bind. People have forgotten, you see. They're giving their whole time to singing, lighting candles, this and that thing. That's all right. That's preparation of the ground: good actions. But you are the doer. First see and then say. The difference between a Saint and other men is that He sees and then says. The other men do not see; they simply read and say. So any one can say, "God is Light; God is all Light." But one who sees it says, "God is all Light," because he has seen He is all Light. A man who is blind from birth has never seen the sun. Similarly a man who has read in a book, "God is Light," saying "God is Light" is just like a blind man saying he has seen the sun. All outer performances of what you do are only to help you to further prepare the ground. There is reaction there, good reaction but there is no emancipation unless you become an initiate of a Saint and the criterion of a Saint is that he must give something to start with. A man gives a very good lecture on business lines, very wonderful, very convincing, very helpful, but if the men to whom he is talking have no money, what will he do? Talk to him, give him some capital to start with. So he must be able to give something. Is there any proof? Where is the proof? You will find there are hundreds of so-called gurus. Most of them advanced by hypnotizing, by mesmerizing, or by radiation. They're also very few. Other gurus simply say, "Go on and do this, you'll have more. Be rest assured your salvation is definite." This won't do. This is on credit, you see, you must have cash.

Do those who take drugs such as LSD and have certain experiences, are they valid experiences?

    No, no. They are hallucinations. Any thought reverberating, that brings forth a hundred times more, mind that. Why do we stop such intoxication, any intoxication; because we are conscious beings. Anything that makes the subconscious a little morbid we are not to use. That results in the death of soul. You follow me?

Drugs result in the death of the soul?

    The death of the soul, yes. Consciousness is lessened and naturally they have to go on to the lower planes. That is what all this intoxication starts.

What about taking LSD then?

    It is still more death of the soul.

There's a great deal of talk that LSD is the foundation or a basis of a religion of the future or at least an improvement on the kind of religion that is now existent.

    No, no, no. It is deterioration. Definitely going down to beastlihood. Their consciousness is marred. Animals are also conscious. Even a snake is conscious but they have a different degree of consciousness. Man's consciousness is very evolved. But if you use suchlike things your consciousness is affected. If you are intoxicated by such means your consciousness is affected, and you will have to go to the lower planes.

Do those who come to you from a background of drug experience start then with a very definite handicap?

    Surely, sometimes at initiation they are given a double sitting. They are made to sit twice. Hitherto, men were prepared for initiation: those who came to the Master had to live with Him for months. When they were ready, only then they were given something. Now the times have changed. Who can live with the Master for months and months? So some things are given all at once at the start. Then it should be maintained by self-introspection. It is wonderful, of course, how we can have this on the very first day. All do get something. Some more, others less, that's another thing; but they do get it. It's a special gift of God. In the Iron Age, the worst of times, still God's grace is more, so that many may be saved.

Of course, it's obvious that when You initiate them here that everybody is getting an experience. I mean, you can see it, you can count it, but I don't know if that is necessarily as obvious when Your assistants do the initiating elsewhere.

    I tell you, if the group leaders use their own ego, then they don't succeed. But if they become a mere channel, all get It. I receive initiation reports. Most of them get something, some do not get. I tell the group leaders to give them a second sitting, sometime when they're fresh and buoyant. Sometimes they're hurrying, they come running in and are made to sit. How can they have an experience? The initiation should be done when they're calm and quiet and when he who is just the means, becomes a channel and is not exerting. So these things stand in the way. In my time when my Master once came to Lahore where I used to live, He initiated some people there. Then He told me, "All right, I have sown the seeds; you give them water. You water them." I told Him, "Master, I'm a mere pipe. The water that you'll send, I'll give them." You see? The other pipes are only there so that the water you send runs through them. Otherwise they are hurt. See the goal - not the personality. I say, "All right, you can give them a sitting." It doesn't mean that he's giving the initiation. The more of a channel he becomes, the more experience they get. Sometimes they are not ready or they are tired or they are hurried up, or the man does not surrender to the Master Power within. That sometimes stands in the way. Some do get very wonderful experiences. Of course, here and there we find some that do not see. Then I tell them, "Give them a second sitting." Sometimes there's some inaccuracy in their doing the practices, sometimes the instructions are given hurriedly, sometimes the channel is just feeling that he's the boss. Then the trouble arises.

Would you recommend then before a person is initiated he undergo some kind of preparation for that initiation; I mean several hours of meditation or something of that nature?

     You see, concentration can be done only when you have something to stand upon in an effective way. When you close your eyes and if you have nothing to see, to stand on, you've got the darkness before you. There you'll stay like a child shut in a dark room with the door closed; he'll break the door, he'll cry. But if he sees something that's attractive and enchanting, then he'll not cry. So there must be something to stand on. Most of the, excuse me for saying this, the so-called masters say, "All right, visualize my face." But I never recommend, never tell anybody that. Why? If you visualize anybody, God forbid if he is not perfect, then you'll become what he is. It's very dangerous. It is very dangerous. God is one who comes of Himself. That figure that appears of itself in the calm and quiet silence in the heart, that is from God. You are not to visualize. I never tell people to visualize. They should pray and sit. That's another thing. If somebody is of a higher level than you are and you visualize him, he won't come in fully. Some days you'll see his turban, some days his hand. Then you'll say, "I saw him there." The mind will be running. Those who are of your level or those who are below you, you'll just think and you see their face. So most of the people nowadays - I've come in touch with all these heads of religions - all tell to visualize a form. They give you a photo. Photos are only for remembrance just like a friend. What comes of itself within and manifests, that is true. That's the difference. That is why my way is different. Most do see something. But they stay, then leave. Naturally if they don't stay they don't get more. You can sit down on any chair, as a child, and you'll see His Face.
    So light is the only thing to stand on. What light? Not physical light but the inner Light. That is the God-into-expression Power. Some people light the candle and visualize the candlelight. Think of the cow and the cow will become a sister, is it not? "I think of the Master, all right; he's got a very good face, very good turban; He is a very gentle man; very elegant; He's a very good actor." But what He is, you see, can be tested only by Initiation. There's a very vast difference, you see. Don't go by propaganda. Propaganda is made when a man fears or is incompetent. Don't go to such a person. I allow everybody to freely go. Go if you can get something better. Then all right. Take me with you. I'll be thankful to you.

Did anybody ever volunteer to take you with them to do something better?

    Not so far. Not so far. If he is better, I will go. I see by the parallel study of religions, scriptures, as well as by sitting at my Master's feet - different Masters, seemingly advanced, sat at my own Master's feet - that which I have seen is true and is supported by all Masters who came in the past. Why should I doubt it? I tell them only to save them from going astray. Some people come and say, "Oh, I have found another; highest thing." The result is that some people do go and they lose what they have already got. They don't get anything further. When such people return, they are reduced. It happens. I've seen men who were initiated, who got something and who were progressing. Someone said, "Oh, there's a higher place. Let's go there." They go there. They lose that thing and further they do not get anything new. If they come back to their senses, they come back. They are always welcome. Even the prodigal son is accepted, you see.

Occasionally there is a disciple, is there not, who feels that he has climbed to higher areas and sets himself up as a teacher but actually is lost in the astral?

    Surely, you see, nobody can boast that he knows everything. Even if we know everything - all creation - what is it? It is one ray of thought. Is it not? Man cannot know everything. At least that ray which is manifest somewhere can give you contact with the ray within you, that's all. No Master ever said, "I am the Doer." He said, "God, the Father, works through me." When he sees some higher power working, how can he say, "I am the worker, I am the Guru, I am the Master?" Those who say that, they are not the Master. They have advanced a little, they just try to hypnotize their followers. His followers are stuck and his own progress is retarded. He loses. It is a very dangerous way.

Some of your initiates who have sought to use such powers have had the powers taken away from them, haven't they?

    They retard their progress. You see, once something is given at the feet of the Master, He never takes it back. Sometimes He keeps something in reserve. What He has given, He does not take back. When it's a spiritual thing, why should you again test it? He gives, but further progress is stopped and what little he has had is lost, and he repents inside. He cannot tell anybody what his fate is. Such like people who are initiating there, I see their diaries and I'd be very ashamed. They become bosses. They become generals and that is the difficulty. If you take them as the be-all and end-all, naturally their progress is stopped and the initiates' progress is also doomed. If you have got a little pond of water, how long will it last? Have contact with somewhere where there is a perennial source: hundreds of men drinking it won't exhaust it.

But, of course, you have background with the Indian army. If you see generals who are misusing powers of the commander-in-chief, why not remove them and put in other generals?

    I tell you one thing. This question has been put to me many times. We are to carry on with these imperfect people. We have not to ask if they have been matriculated or graduated. You can carry on with others because they're made channels, only to carry on the work. But their progress is retarded. Go and ask them. See their diaries. I enjoin that each man should keep diaries. Even the representatives should send diaries. They don't keep them. They feel that they are perfect, but they are not. But anyway the work has to be carried further. Those who become a channel, progress.
    A thief went to a Master who told him, "not to tell lies; secondly not to steal from someone you've taken food from; and thirdly, to stand up when you see others have been martyred on account of you. These teachings you should follow." Some days passed and the thief was thinking, "Suppose a man has got ten thousand dollars and somebody takes away five hundred dollars: that does not affect him. The man who has got only two hundred dollars or one hundred dollars and the whole amount is taken away, he will be affected. So he thought, "I will go to some rich man." He went to the ruler of the place. So for going to the ruler of the place he dressed himself very nicely. Naturally, if you go to the ruler you must be well dressed. After midnight, he came to the rich man's house and there were guards outside who were watching. "Who are you?" they said. "I am a thief," he replied. He thought, "I am not to tell lies." The guards thought, "It is past midnight now. How can any man with very good dress be a thief? He must be some near relative or friend." So he was allowed in. He collected all the money which he put in one place. Then he just saw something to eat. He took it. Now, how could he take the money when his Master ordered him not to steal from whom he had taken food? So he left everything and came out at about 3:30 or 4:00. Those who were on the watch said, "All right, he has met his friends and is now going away." The next morning the ruler woke up and everything was in a pile. "What's all this?" The thief had come, gathered everything but did not take it away. He asked the guards, "Who came last night?" "I tell you one man came here after midnight. He said, `I am a thief.' Then he went away. God knows what happened."
    Next morning they summoned all those thieves recorded by the government and began to beat them, asking, "Tell me who had stolen over there." When the thief came to know that others were being martyred for his sake, he came up, "I am your thief." "What are you talking about?" He said, "Yes, I am your thief." "How did it happen?" "When I first went to my Master, He gave me three instructions to follow: First, not to tell lies; so when they said, `Who are you?' I told them I was a thief. I went there and collected everything; then there was something I tasted. Naturally I was not able to take what I collected because Master said, `Don't take from anyone who has given you food.' Now, because others have been beaten for nothing, for my sins, I have come forward, as He told me." "Who is your Guru?" the king asked. He went to him.
    Even if you follow literally, you're saved. The diaries; have you seen that circular on the diaries? "What's the use of keeping a diary?" There are three or four things given: first of all you become regular, second, whenever you commit a sin, you confess and third, you remember the Master and God in thinking. In Christianity you go to the minister and confess after a month or a week. So many times during a day you confess. And so many times you remember the Master. "I've forgotten, I've done wrong." He says to remember the Master every minute if not twice the time, if not three times the time. If during the day you commit so many things, you remember the Master so many times and the confession washes away.