Do some of your initiates get to the stage, maybe after several years, when they say, "I can't stand this any longer. I've got to eat meat. I've got to violate the chastity regulation. I've got to forget about keeping the diary," and then they take off and go someplace else?

    The point is, if this happens, they are not really hungry for something higher. They want only this life, not the other life. That's all. They had something; they did not live up to it and, moreover, they did not taste the sweet elixir of being in contact with the Absolute. Sometimes it's because of society. Sometimes it's because they don't keep their diaries. That is why all these things come up. Remember, that is why such-like people never remain in contact.

Sometimes I would imagine there is such terrible pressure from family members, that satsangis give in.

    I tell you. I was born in a family of meat-eaters. As a child, I did not partake of it. Nobody can force you. One may refuse. I can love you but it is not necessary to eat what you eat. These are limited excuses, you know. Somebody came to India who said, "When any food is offered, it should not be refused - in the Bible it says so." So he cannot refuse anybody's offer of anything? They have a right to poison you? Good things you may accept. Otherwise politely you say, "No." If somebody offers you poison, would you accept it? It's really not poison, but it affects you. These are only lame excuses for not refusing. If you live for some time in contact with higher spirituality, then naturally the mind comes under control. Now the mind does not want to give up outer enjoyments. When you enjoy inner bliss, how can you return? In the beginning at least something has to be done regularly.

So it's a matter, I suppose, of not wishing to submit to the initial discipline that's required.

    That is what is strictly required, I tell you. In the old days, demonstrations of these gifts were never given to people at large. Only those who lived at the Master's feet for years, lived up to what He wanted, only when they were ready, were given something. Now the times have changed. Who can live with Master for years? So something is given and they are asked to maintain it by self-introspection, by regular devotion of time.

There are many, many people, of course mostly young men, who will spend hours training and preparing themselves for athletic contests. In a sense, this is a similar kind of training, isn't it?

    More lucrative. Such-like profit which will never be lost. "Lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt." The main thing is, we have to leave the body. How do you stand? What's your fate? Two things happen at death: you are to leave the body, and you must know where to go. Is it not proper that we should be fed now and prepare?

But so many people these days seem to have talked themselves into the idea that there is no further fate, that there's just a bunch of nothingness that's going to assail them.

    That's all right. When sulphuric acid is put on copper filings, they will bubble out and disappear. There's no consciousness there. Energy is there, of course. A train is run by an engine. No consciousness is in the engine. You are a man, you are conscious. But after leaving the body, there is a very important question - we should know what is what. As a man we can do this, and in no other form of creation. Now you have come here. You have seen this place. You have got some guide here. You will come very confidently.

There's a great feeling of peace here.

     Yes, yet there's more peace There. All glory and beauty lie within you. Now you don't want to leave these outward enjoyments. Once we have some little experience of that inner bliss, we won't leave it, you see?

So it's keeping in training until that experience comes through? It may be keeping in training for fifteen years.

    What do these people want? They get some demonstration of it. What is that? It may not be a lot. It is just a start, but they get some demonstration. It is a special gift. Others who devote hours and hours and hours to the outward performances don't get anything. They pray, they cry, they sit down, and have their candle before them; it is all darkness within. The main thing is you have to leave the body. Who are you? Where are you? Where do you go? How does this body work? I think these are very vital questions, most vital, which concern our own self. The Hindu scriptures tell us that when the soul leaves the body, one feels the pain as if bitten by a thousand scorpions.

I notice that it says that, and yet there are some reports that many people die peacefully, apparently without pain.

    I tell you that may be from heart failure; if all their thoughts - desires - remain unfulfilled, they go on circling; their souls grovel around the earth. If a soul leaving the body at the time of death still
wants something or is attached to somebody but cannot have it, he grovels around the world.

I know one relative, for example, who said just as she was about to die, "I see Jesus here." And apparently she died in peace.

     I tell you, that's due to a reaction of the past; but every man has not the same story behind him. She might be devoted to Jesus and be of good character. But at that time, when past actions are so near, the end comes only as a result of the whole life's essence. There are various cases you'll find.

So conceivably she wasn't in so much pain because she had devoted her life in that direction?

    Yes.

Then there are the reports of people who have made some of these astral trips and they say when they go into the astral there's no pain leaving the body.

    When they have learnt to leave that body, not before. To leave the body is the first question. When you are in the habit of coming and going daily, death is no bugbear. If you're coming from a hotter to a cooler place, then?

In other words, if you've learned how to do it, then the pain isn't there?

    No. And further, we should know where we are going. After all, there are worlds beyond. Because of our backgrounds too, we have got something which we are now earning.

Well, the departure at death is a different departure than, say, a departure for an astral flight. The departure at death goes through a different door with Kal waiting there to gobble you up, whereas he doesn't wait to gobble you up when you go out for an astral flight.

     Astral flight - that's just hovering around the world. Quite near the earth, not beyond. I went to London. There was a famous man there. He charged five pounds to have astral people talk through him. So some friends of mine said, "Let us go and see." The whole room was dark, pitch dark. We sat down. Nothing happened. There was very much acting and posing going on. He'd speak like a child, and strain himself: (The Master imitates the fake trembly voice of the medium) "The atmosphere is not favorable tonight - I cannot come." You see? It was his own voice. A man can train himself to talk that way in a dark room. There's fraud outside; I'm afraid there's a hundred times more black marketing inside. Those people are acting and posing. That's why people have lost faith in this
work.

Too much fakery and commercialism?

     Yes, yes. Too much propaganda. I tell you, one American was initiated by me - I've got the initiation report in his own handwriting. Then he  wrote to me, "The Master's Form appears to me inside." That Form used to  speak to him, dictate to him, inside. And all that dictation was put into
a book and the manuscript was sent to me in 1963. Then later on he  started a new religion.

Yes. I've heard of him.

    Later he sent me another letter, "Return my book." That is what such - like people will do. They had some little thing, and got stuck fast there. Now he's carrying on propaganda. He says he was never initiated by me. He was initiated in 1955. Some people get stuck fast on the way. This little ego is very difficult to get rid of unless there's some kind of protection. This is a living example. I need not mention his name.

I don't think he mentions Your name either.

    I don't think he would. I don't like to say things about anyone. If any man does well, all right. I returned the book. That was dictated by me, and that's all right. He changed that book before printing; where he mentioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name. So such is the fate of these people. People are fed up with these masters, gurus, and sadhus. Why? Only for this reason. I told you there is black marketing outside but hundreds and thousands times more black marketing inside.

Do You ever feel at times that You would just like to stay here at Your home in the foothills of the Himalaya Mountains and not issue forth again to the hustle and the bustle of Delhi and other parts of the world?

     I'm bound, you see. I am directed what to do. I am a mere puppet. There is no question of my will now. That's all I can say. Even in the busiest of times, I've not planned first.

The karma of most people is already laid out. Is it possible for a Master, however, to say that, "All right, point one and point three of that karma will be interchanged. " Can He do that?

    What do you mean?

Well, I mean if we come down here with a certain amount of Pralabdh Karma that has to be paid off, is there necessarily any order that it has to follow in being paid off? Can a Master say, "Well, I'm going to hold back on this portion of your karma and you won't have to pay it off until you're sixty-seven years old?

    In one's own case or in the case of others?

In the case of others. In the case of His initiates.

    I tell you, the Master is to wind up all reactions to the best He can. The initiate prays, "Oh God, I pray I should go to Your Home forever, that I should not return." So He's working to wind up all actions and reactions. Most of them are paid off in dreams, and like that their severity is polished down to the minimum possible. Whatever reactions cannot be set aside, you've got to pass through, but with a little help on the side. Generally in the life of an initiate, he'll find many changes in his life.
His life history according to astrology does not stand true. Those who have transcended the starry skies are under the control of One Who goes beyond those planes; there astrology does not stand true - things are changed. Many things are omitted, sometimes some things are delayed, some things are
minimized.

You would not advise people to pay too much attention to astrology then?

    Those things won't stand true always. Many things are cut down, eliminated.

Is it at least a basis by which one can judge someone's character?

     By face you mean, or by writing? After all, stars have some effect, some effect. I'm only speaking of the destiny of those under the custody of Someone Who goes higher than that.

Actually, I suppose, I feel a little embarrassed at having sunk to this low subject when we were talking about higher matters. Is there something in this area here in the Himalaya Mountains that makes for better meditations? Or is it purely the presence of the Master?

    The presence of the Master, of course, is of great help in that. Solitude also goes to help - any atmosphere which is not poisoned by the thoughts of worldly people. Even Christ used to run away to the mountains, to the wilderness.

Let's see. When Christ was driven to the wilderness He was taken up on the mountain and told, "You can have all of this if You'll just bow down." He said, "Get thee behind me."

    Yes, it also happened to Guru Nanak. It happened with others, too.

This temptation then actually occurs at a certain place on the inner planes?

     Yes, in meditation. I need not mention by the way, the Negative Power tells me all that is going on in the world; everywhere you see trouble nowadays. Why are there troubles? He says, "I am bound to do it. After all, this work has been given to me. Those who are not good, they must have punishment. So You remove (souls) from this place, but this I won't quit. My work has been allotted to me to carry on."

Is the Negative Power an actual person?

    No. That very Power is no personality question. Just the power that is going out is called Negative Power. What is going in, That is called the Christ Power, God Power, Master Power going into expression.

But does the Negative Power on the inner planes ever take the form of something that might took like a person to us?

     Yes, it materializes but it has no special form. There is no special form, of course. But he is a very honest judge, very honest judge. One thing, he won't let anybody go out of his control, out of his pale. He'll give everything to you, but not let you go out of his control.

How much will he fight to keep that from happening?

    He'll fight up to the third plane. Beyond that he'll cry, "Oh, my man is gone."

He does not lose very many, does he?

    Yes, of course, there are many, not innumerable, but many, you can say.

Hopefully he'll lose us?

     Yes, he'll cry. Not will cry, but he cried because of those who got out of his power.

Was that story that's told about Kal a true one, that he told Sat Purush that he couldn't be happy up there and wanted his own realm?

    That is a way of expression. After all, this power has been given by Whom? Suppose I give you now one example. There is a king. He appoints a commander-in-chief. He's the appointing authority. And he's also the appointing authority of a viceroy. But their functions are different. The commander-in-chief never says, "I convey to you the orders of the King." He says, "I order you." Because he fully knows that power has been given to him from the higher power. He has so many colonels and majors. They get a very handsome salary and many concessions but he won't let those go out of his control. He'll haul them up, court martial them. When the city is in trouble it is handed over to the military. It punishes some men and others are set to put the condition of the town in order. But the viceroy never says, "I say;" he says, "I convey to you the orders of the King." All these avatars: Lord Krishna, Rama, and others, their duty is a different one. They come to punish the wicked, help those who are righteous and set the world in order. Saints' ways are different. They don't punish anyone; They seek to bring them around, you see. Their work is just to give them contact with God and let them go back to the Father's Home, not to come back as a prisoner. They might come back as a teacher. That's the difference. They depopulate the world. The avatar, you see, keeps the world in order, does not let the population grow less.

Does each Saint have a quota of souls that He is to bring back to Sat Purush?

     A limited amount, of course. Each Saint has His own work to do. The Power is the same, but Their functions are different. Each has His own duty; He does it and goes Home.

That figure that always comes up from the Bible is that a hundred and forty-four thousand are going to be saved. Presumably that was true around the year one A.D.?

    How many? That's only for each Saint, you see. Each Saint has His day. What did Christ say? Do you remember? "As long as I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."

I think that may have been lost in translation in some editions of the Bible, though.

    No. It still stands.

Is it there, "As long as I am in the world?"

    Yes. Strange enough the Christians themselves don't know the Bible. I'm not quoting from my own. Read St. John, I think it is the ninth chapter, verse five. Of course, that's true. Then He said, "I shall never leave thee nor forsake thee till the end of the world." Whom He took under His custody, He won't leave. He's responsible for initiates until they reach the true Home of the Father.

"Till the end of the world," how should that be translated?

    That means until that soul reaches the Father's Home.

While we're talking about things out of the Bible, You recall the story, of course, about the rich young man who came to Jesus and said, "Lord, how can I be saved?" Jesus looked at him and said, "Give away all that thou hast and come follow me, "and the young man went away sorrowing for he had a lot of possessions and then Jesus turned and said, 'It's going to be easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven." Is that valid?

    It means the same thing. Those who are attached so much to worldly things, how can they go back to God? They won't even want to hear about leaving this world. When they leave it, they will be hovering around the world.

Is it possible to have possessions of this world without being attached to them?

     Yes, surely. I think you can be attached to only one, not many. You go where you are attached. What is your ruling passion in life? If you have got a ruling passion for the world, you will come back. A man who is so much given up to the worldly things and enjoyments, naturally cannot go - it is easier to pass a camel through the eye of a needle rather than for a rich man to get into Heaven. You are not to think of the body you are about to leave - how can one who is given up to all attachments leave?

But it wouldn't be possible to just sit back and wait for an income to come in. I mean put it in a bank and wait for interest to come and then devote all your time to spirituality and let the income maintain you.

    This is one thing, of course, but suppose the bank fails? Put it in the lap of God. What happened in Panama when I went last time? I gave my passport to the Pan American Company to get a visa for South America. The Panamanians were fighting with the Americans at the time - the very day I arrived the building was burned down and my passport also got burnt. You see? I could not go. So suppose the bank fails! You still have to leave the body; maybe now or in ten years or twenty years; you may go to sleep tonight and never rise.

Well, would you advise everybody to sell everything or give away everything they have and come and follow You?

    I advise, "Live by the sweat of your brow," by honest earnings. Maintain your families with whom God has united you. It is the flowing pen of God which has brought you together. This is one thing; and never sow more seeds to be sprouted forth again. Your ruling passion, your ruling attachment, should be with God. Further, man should live not for his own self but for others. Animals do live for themselves. They fight others with their horns to save their children. If man does the same,
where's his superiority? Man is the ruling power, you see; the highest in all creation, he has just to support the younger brothers, animals, birds, reptiles; they are all members of the family of God. They are younger brothers.

We haven't been doing very well by them.

    That is what I say. We are the heads. The head of the family should look after the welfare of all, and we go and eat them. It's not common sense. I love you and eat your children. We say we love God; all this creation is His. Here we have got cobras. If you have love for them, love radiates. They also have some sense, you see. "Be wise as serpents," Christ said. So our thoughts react, they use self-defense against us; attack. It so happened at Delhi, a Satsang had just started and a cobra came. There were some two or three hundred people sitting. This cobra came just in front of me and sat like that. To shoot this cobra wouldn't help. The talk was going on. He was just looking at me for more than an hour and a half. When the talk was over, he slipped away. They said, "We should kill him!" But why? He did not harm anyone. We are man, you see. Great is man. They're all our children. It is you who have spoiled the children. All nature is beautiful except when tormented by the hand of man.

And man will have to pay for this?

     Reactions. Reactions. You should love them. Generally in the case of serpents, they don't harm any child. Sometimes a child takes a snake in his mouth and it does not harm him.

Is there any chance that when you kill a snake you might be killing an old mother-in-law from a previous reincarnation?

    May or may not be, who knows? But serpents are only those who are very greedy people; those who were hoarding money. I tell you one man came here and he killed a female cobra that lived here. The male cobra came here for months to seek out that man. But he was never here. They're very smart. We have a glorious world but we have spoiled it by our own thoughts.

In a statement You made this afternoon, I still am not exactly certain what You meant when You said that it was harder to become a man than to see God.

    It is easier to meet God but it is harder to make a man. So it should be: man first, and then Him.

Well, I think if you see God you would automatically have all these karmas wiped out and become a perfect man.

     You're right, but what I mean is, to have an ideal man is very difficult. To find God is not. That takes time - to make a man takes time. The time factor is a necessity. It is not done in one day.

But if you see God, what do you care about becoming a perfect man? Why do you care?

     You get a glimpse of It; to get a glimpse of It is something else. You see the sun for a while but if you are absorbed in the sun, then?

But only the perfect man can continue to see God?

    Only the perfect man continually sees God, that's right. That means that righteousness is necessary. Righteousness: right thoughts, right words, right deeds. That is why this diary is kept until we are perfect. Man should change inside, not outside. Chastity of thought, word, and deed. That's the first thing required. The second thing is perseverance. These two things are required.

Is the Master Power going to stop this explosion from coming that seems so inevitable?

    Many will be saved who will turn their faces to Him. That's all I can say. The only thing is, we say something but mean something else. That's the trouble. If the governments really want peace, they should have an attitude of live and let others live. Make their countries so advanced and peace giving that everyone would want to come over there. Each government should make their country into a blooming garden - let everyone come and enjoy and help others bring their gardens into a blooming state. That should be the attitude.

You're painting a very dismal state of affairs tonight. Can't You offer us any hope?

    I have said - those who turn their faces to Him will be saved. There's hope. I'm talking about the general state of affairs. The tendency is to remain and enjoy; headlong down they are going. They speak of peace, they speak of peace - lip service, but they have turned away. There's trouble going on everywhere. Right understanding is required. This is what the Masters did in the past. They went out to give right understanding to the government and wake up. Anyhow, it is past the hands of the son of man - that much is sure. But there's awakening also and there's a good side. There are conferences all meeting together; and now the trend is to unite all nations.