Last night, You referred to "shouting your message from the roof-tops."

    Not I, but Christ.

Well, I know, but You also implied that we do so, too.

    It is your duty to tell the people over there the Truth; what you have come to know; that there is something.

I was just wondering if You had any suggestions as to the best way that this could be accomplished.

    I think you're a better judge.

How do you feel about making use of all of the arts to tell the story? I mean not only in newspapers, radio, and television. What about novels? What about plays? What about poetry? What about music? Should all of them be employed?

    These are separate subjects. Television of course is a very good medium for telling people. When I went to America I appeared on television. It was relayed to other stations; they would ask us questions and they would expect the answer then and there. Someone spoke from one station through the telephone. The man who was interviewing me, by hearing my replies to these questions, got initiated. He wanted initiation at once. My point is, when you see a thing is right and there's no doubt about it, then it becomes your duty to tell others, "Well, look here dear friend, you're advanced physically, intellectually, and as we are also spirit, you should do something spiritually." If he's got an inkling, that inkling will arouse his interest. If he has no interest, then keep quiet. If he has, then what you say will arouse interest in him and he will be seeking further information.

A number of the young people who are becoming satsangis are wondering what kind of work to take up. You insist, of course, that people work to support themselves. Would You recommend that short stories, and so on that have a spiritual twist to them?

    Surely, that's all right; that's earned money. A man should stand on his own feet to earn money, by honest means. He can write stories with a spiritual theme. Poets and writers when they're in the mood are inspired. They cannot write at will. Writers and poets start writing maybe at midnight; anyway that inspiration comes direct. Sometimes they write what they do not know themselves; that thing comes from within and they put it down in black and white.

That's true of all the great writers, I imagine. Dictated from above?

    Yes, that is why it is said, "Poets are half saints." You might have read some of Tennyson. He speaks about his own concentration, "A kind of waking trance I have frequently had, from boyhood onwards, when I have been all alone. This has generally come upon me through repeating my own name two or three times to myself silently till all at once, as it were, out of the intensity of consciousness of individuality, the individuality itself seemed to dissolve and fade away into boundless being, and this is not a confused state, but the clearest of the clearest, the surest of the surest, the wisest of the wisest, utterly beyond words, where death was a laughable impossibility, the loss of personality (if so it were), seemingly but the only true life. I am ashamed of my feeble description. Have I not said the state is utterly beyond words?" So that state was achieved by repetition, dwelling on one's name. One's own name is finite. God's name is infinite. Tennyson was a born poet. His father did not like him to be a poet.

Is there the basis for a revival of the arts among satsangis, using satsangis as those in the forefront? Is there enough talent?

    What do you mean by "arts"? "Arts" is a very wide term.

I know. I suppose I think primarily in terms of the written arts.

    I tell you these things come of themselves. I have had experience of that. Look at the Gurmat Sidhant, the work I wrote in two volumes; one, nine hundred pages, the other, one thousand one hundred pages. I used to write at about eight or nine at night. I sat and was writing. One day some writer was there watching me. "From what are you writing so fast?" At about midnight he said, "Look here, you're writing so fast, you're not copying anything; but how do you write?" I said, "Someone
is dictating to me, I cannot follow Him."

You were writing that in Urdu?

    In Punjabi. I have written books in English that way, under the shelter of this tree. There were some sitting arrangements then. [Master points to a tree nearby. ]

That was dictated by Sawan Singh?

    It was intuition; the same.

Of course; You have put His name on the book.

    It's all due to Him. How can one be ungrateful? My books are dedicated, "To God and to all in Whom He manifested and Baba Sawan Singh, at Whose Feet I have imbibed the Truth." Ungratefulness is the most heinous crime in the world. Most heinous.

Well, what You're saying then is that the arts, if they are going to manifest, will flow through all sorts of unlikely people, not only satsangis but many, many others, and so we perhaps should not concentrate on them in Satsangs in order to promote and tell Your message.

    I don't get what you mean. Do you mean that those who are not initiated, newcomers, that they should not be told about this science? Is that what you mean?

Well, I had wondered at first if it would be possible to suggest to satsangis to look around to see if they had a novel in them or a play in them or something of that nature to tell the story that You have put in prose.

    First tell them in general terms, "We are physically advanced but how far are we developed spiritually? Man is perfected only when he is developed all around. Otherwise he is an amputated man." Then if he is after it, he will put further questions. If he is not, then it is just like throwing pearls before swine. It is better to be quiet. But just sound them out or say something very definite. When I give a talk, I give it purely in the third person. My talks are not in the first person. When those who are seeking have grasped it, they come up. Those who are ready, they will come. Not others.
I suppose what I'm really trying to ask is whether the message should be placed before millions and millions of people or whether it should be restricted in its placement.
    I think the reply has already been given by Christ. The farmer has sown seeds: some fell on the rocks, some fell on the ground, but some fell on the ready ground. You are to explain that. Maybe some are ready. I went to a nearby town and was sitting in the morning, saying, "I'11 tell you, there is hope for the worst of robbers." One head of the robbers was sitting in on the talk. "Is there really any hope for robbers? .... Yes," I replied. Next day he turned up and requested initiation. He got initiation: he left off robbery and he brought other fellow robbers to be initiated. It is right to speak, but only they will catch it who are ready, not others.

So would You recommend as wide publicity as possible with the hope that someone might see, someone might hear...

    Those who have eyes may see. Those who have ears may hear. Not everybody. That is what was meant: "You speak from the housetops." That was the message of deliverance. Only those will come to you whom God sends. Those are ready, who are on the Way. There is no need for exaggeration. The facts should be there. Sometimes people make a mountain out of a molehill... "he was flying in the air; he was doing this and that," Those who have ears, who are ready, only they will come. There are some people seeking, not all of them; they need some inkling, that's all.

Should we submit articles to newspapers? Should we submit programs to television and radio stations?

    I think there is no harm. One should be sincere. No exaggeration. No lies. Sometimes people say so many things simply to broadcast the name of the Master. Not that. You can say, "Such a man is coming who is awake. People have derived much benefit from Him." They must at least know. People who are ready for spiritual things are after it. There is hope for them as in the past. Those who would like It may come and have a contact.

So the kind of things that perhaps would be appropriate would not be something that would exhort, that would try to proselytize, but would just announce.

    Announce. No exaggeration, just the facts. You can give articles to the papers on the subject of spirituality. The general subject of spirituality can definitely be included. There are publications that do these things now and then, not all the time. Their editors are known to those people concerned over there. Whether they're paid for it, I don't know. The majority pay them. There's no need to pay, I think.

In other words, You would not recommend taking ads, but to submit articles instead of ads?

    My point is to place some facts you've fortunately come to know; let these facts come to the notice of others, those who are seeking, that's all. Bare facts. Sometimes they give very long, exaggerated announcements which are misleading.

Would You suggest that placing ads announcing facts in newspapers be a high priority item for all Satsangs?

    I think if you've got something valuable, naturally you'd like to tell others who are near you. You are all brothers; where's the harm? Most people are only interested in an idea when very exaggerated statements are made. If they come and don't see, they won't read anything further. Now Spirituality is a subject which cannot be proved. How many, by only giving a meditation sitting, can give something? Very rare. But I think that will appeal only to those who are searching for it, not everybody. In a town of ten million people, I think maybe fifteen or twenty people will be in a Satsang. There are ways to broadcast news on radio and television so that you can make use of it, but not by exaggeration; that is wrong. Sometimes people speak over-enthusiastically and then the people don't find it up to their expectations. I can give you an example. There was a man from _____. God knows what expectations were given to him there. He came here. He was given a sitting. He got bright sun-light. He heard the sound of violins. Good experience. That was just a start--I told him it was just a start, you see. Someone had given him exaggerated accounts. He was disappointed; he was expecting me to fly in the air or something like that. But he found me a man.

Have You had many television and radio people attracted to Delhi, to the Ashram, to cover some of the activities which could then in turn be used in the United States or elsewhere?

    I never tried, but I was asked to talk on the radio -- twice, thrice. They're after me now to broadcast on television; some talk is to be given. I will go. I have to go. They have come up. I'm not, I tell you, doing very much about approaching them, but they're approaching me.

That's always preferable.

    Television people came to the last Satsang; they recorded the talk. They came up of themselves. Now they want to make a regular film. They said, "This teaching that you give out, that is the need of the hour." I told them, "The real integration starts from the individual man. Not from individual religion." They broadcast it so many times. Twice I gave talks on the radio and they were repeated perhaps fifty times. The Government asked me for an article on Guru Nanak. I never do anything of myself. When I am asked, I am to do. So I sent my article; my article was selected the best. Part of this article was issued in Sat Sandesh [January 1970]. It has gone out in all languages. It started, "Guru Nanak was not the monopoly of any sect." I touched on His various integration reforms, as well as being a farmer, a lover of God. So I think there's no harm in telling any friend, true friend--give him an inkling--"There's some hope," but that's all. The main thing is; don't exaggerate; that spoils the whole show. Exaggeration spoils the whole show.
    When I went to America, there was one gentleman, he's passed away now, a Sikh gentleman who was giving talks on payment. He married a French lady. He was initiated by Baba Sawan Singh, I know, definitely. When he wrote his first book, he sent a copy to Baba Sawan Singh. Master gave it to me. It was a copy of what I had written. I wanted to meet him but he always evaded me. I was in America four months. I asked him for his program but he would change his program. We never met. He said he never even saw Baba Sawan Singh, and his book is the exact translation of a portion of the book I had written.

Which book, Gurmat Sidhant?

    Exactly.

What part?

    Certain portions from the first and second part. I asked Mr. Khanna to approach him. He said, "He won't receive you." I went to California. He left his home. I met his wife. When I was there he went to the East, and when I went to the East he went to the West. Only to hide. He said he was a born Master.

Yes, he said he had no need of a Master, that he came directly from God.

    That is what I say. And when he went to India, he never met me. So such-like things are known. After all, the cat is out of the bag. Is it not? To sit at the feet of a Saint, is it a sin? A man who is given up to intoxication will seek those who have sufficient to drink. It is God's intoxication. I have only given out that which I got through the Grace of God and through such a Saint. Then? Where's the harm in it? His foremost disciple [of the self-proclaimed guru] met me. He asked for initiation on my 1963 tour. He was with me in the car; he was asking me questions, one, two, three, a hundred and one, like that. I politely replied quite calmly. He said, "I'm very surprised. Had I talked to him about these things, he would have slapped me in the face. He always gets angry. I put you so many questions, and you politely and very calmly replied to me, but he would have slapped me in the face."

In all fairness, however, his wife suggested that we contact You.

    She might have heard about it.

She knew about You.

    When I went to California, his wife was there. He said he was initiated by some priest in the Himalayas.

He was actually an initiate of Sawan Singh, wasn't he?

    Definitely, I know. He sent his first book to Baba Sawan Singh. I was there. Master gave it to me. He was in a regiment in Amritsar. Such-like things, I tell you, are not good. After all, these things come out. If I have got something, I have learned something from you, I must be grateful to you for that. Whatever little I have learned from you or anybody. Ungratefulness is a heinous crime, most heinous. The more the sheep bleats, the more morsels fall down from his mouth.

I almost hesitate to ask what would happen to a person who did that.

    Why should you worry about this? Even what I have told you; to be polite, this is wrong. You should not broadcast anything which is not correct. If you have a hundred dollars, tell people you have a hundred dollars. Don't say you've got a million dollars. This is what I mean. People don't believe all these announcements in the papers. That is one of the reasons, you see. So these announcements need only be given in a very simple way, to attract the eyes of those who are really seekers. People don't like to read long yarns. Simple facts. "Many have benefited spiritually. Those who care may see. Something is there." No exaggeration. Exaggeration spoils the whole show. Let the others say, "I am this and that." Calmly and quietly a Godman can give talks for an hour or two, heart-to-heart, never tiring. He can speak all through the day. So honest statements are always best.